Today on the Outmap podcast we're talking to Tom Odell - a man with enough passion to power a house! Tom is a smart guy, as his academic qualifications prove, but it's his drive and determination that really stand out. He doesn't know where he's going, he doesn't know how, but he'll get there. Be ready for half an hour or psyche, self-belief and pure joy.
Key Takeaways & Insights
Flying to Japan cost Tom's family almost the same as skiing in Australia.
Tom says tickets, accommodation and food on the mountain are all expensive in Australia, where the closest ski field to him is about 6 hours away. He learned to ski in Niseko aged about 3 and had gone back to Japan almost every year since.
Tom wanted to be involved in running a business, preferably in the ski industry.
Tom was finishing a finance and accounting degree that year, did not want to sit in a big office every day, and decided against ski guiding. He skied almost every day, worked at a lodge from 3 pm to 10 pm, then was normally up until 1 or 2 am on social media and online work.
Tom's biggest lesson in ski mountaineering: calm down at the top of a line.
Tom says to take the stoke out and make the most well-informed decision you can, because thinking only about how good the skiing will be is when you can put yourself in danger. He had been ski mountaineering for probably 3 or 4 years and still considered himself pretty new to it.
Japan's lift-access backcountry is so easy to reach that Tom works on pulling back.
Some terrain is a 10 to 15 minute boot pack from the top of a lift, with no skin up. Tom says the snowpack seems more stable than most places, which is no excuse for stupid stuff, and Japanese resorts seem to do a lot more ski cutting than Canada and Europe.
Tom says 2 weeks in Japan almost guarantees a couple of 40 centimetre days.
A lot of Americans and Europeans had started showing up over the previous 5 years or so, where it had always been a lot of Australians and Kiwis. Tom thinks snowboarders now just outnumber skiers there, unlike pretty much everywhere else.
Tom's second Hakuba winter brought dumps of about 60 to 80 centimetres, then rain.
Each dump came over a day or two, Tom says. It seemed to him that everywhere in the world struggled at the start of that season, with very warm weather and rain. He had been discussing with friends how much longer skiing would be around, with global temperatures rising so much.
Complete podcast transcript
Hello, and welcome back to the Outmap Podcast, A Guide in Life. My name's Charlie Boscoe, and this week I'm talking to Tom Odell. Now, if that name seems familiar, maybe because you've seen him on Outmap's social media. Tom is a young guy with a humongous psych for skiing, and he wants to turn that passion into a career.
0:30 As you'll hear in the interview, he's not quite sure how, he's not quite sure when, he's not quite sure what, but if passion is as powerful as they say, he will be just fine. Tom has been making some great content, which has appeared on the Outmap social media over the past few months, and as you will hear in this interview, he definitely walks the walk.
0:56 Tom, thanks for joining. Where are you joining from today? And by the way, this answer will make everyone insanely jealous. I know the answer. Go on.
I'm in Hakuba, Japan.
Okay. How's winter out there?
Yeah, it's great. This is my second full winter here. It's been a bit of a slow winter this year compared to last year, but still skied more powder days than I haven't. So it's been great.
That is definitely not something many people in BC can say this year.
Yeah, I know. It's pretty crazy here. You're always able to find snow, fresh snow.
When did you first ski Japan?
I actually learned to ski in Japan, so being from Australia, there's not that much snow there. Closest ski field to me is like six hours away. So it's almost the same price to take your family over to Japan from Australia than go to the ski fields in Australia.
Why, 'cause the ski fields are just, the tickets are expensive?
Yeah, tickets are so expensive, accommodation's expensive, food on the mountain's expensive. So Japan's so cheap, flying over to Japan for a week or two was almost the same price for my parents growing up. So I learned to ski in Niseko when I was like three. And pretty much gone to Japan every year since then.
I feel like ski mountaineering's an unusual hobby for a British guy. In a way it's even more unusual for an Aussie. You obviously started skiing young, but where did the passion for more adventurous skiing come from?
Probably from my time living in Whistler. Spent two seasons there, and there's a huge backcountry community there obviously, and that's where I started doing all my avalanche courses and stuff. And then, yeah, at one point I thought I was gonna go down the ski guide path.
2:58 And then, yeah, I came to Japan last year and realized I didn't actually wanna be a ski guide, I just wanted to ski as much as I could, for myself. So now it's just trying to figure out a way to ski as many days of powder as I can a year and have a job that supports that.
It's a common misconception I think of the ski industry is that you basically just go skiing, and obviously there An element of just going skiing. But as I kind of figured out when I was pursuing guiding, if you're being paid to be in a certain place at a certain time with certain people doing a certain thing, it still feels like work. It might be the best work ever getting out of a helicopter and skiing powder.
3:42 But ultimately you're still doing it for them, and your focus is giving them the best day ever, and it isn't just getting paid to have endless powder days, is my perception of the ski guiding.
Yeah, exactly. And yeah, I don't think any amount of money would pull me away from wanting to just go out there with my friends every day and ski powder.
So you're a relatively, young guy. So you... I mean, how old are you right now?
I'm 22.
Okay. Just makes me feel so old. But so you finished high school and then what happened? You thought, "Right, it's the skiing life for me," and then headed to Whistler?
Yeah. Well, my last year of high school was right in the thick of COVID, and in Australia it was pretty grim. We had really big lockdowns, and we were kind of stuck just in our house for a year. Didn't really get any experience of year 12 or anything. So then just went straight into uni out of school. Did like a year of uni, and just felt pretty lost. Didn't really know what I was doing.
4:57 Wanted to just get out of Australia and go travel the world a bit. So I did a bit of travel, but then I found myself in Canada doing a ski season. Went over there by myself and then, yeah, just met so many like-minded people that I hadn't experienced at home in Australia.
5:18 And yeah, just had so much fun. Went back for a second year, and then I came to Japan for a third year. Now I'm here for my fourth season in Japan. Yeah, all whilst doing uni in the middle of the year at home.
Did you finish uni?
I finish this year. I've taken it pretty slowly. Missed a few semesters here and there. But I'll finally finish at the end of this year.
And what's your degree in?
Finance and accounting.
Oh, wow. You might end up with a real job.
Yeah. Trying to avoid that hopefully.
Well, that was what I wanted to talk to you about actually is, your work plans? 'Cause I guess like a lot of people, you're clearly smart enough to go to university and potentially pursue the traditional job route. But it sounds like you're that's not what you're planning to do.
6:17 What are you, what are your plans? How is your career shaping up?
Yeah. Well, when I first started my degree, I am quite interested in the finance and accounting, career path, especially at the start. I really enjoy it, and I still do enjoy it. Find it very interesting. But as I get towards the end of my degree and realize that I'm gonna have to really start getting a proper job soon, I've realized it's not what I want to do, and I definitely don't want to be sitting in a big office building every day.
6:54 So I'm not exactly sure what I'm gonna do, but it's keeping every door open at the moment. I'm doing everything I can to try to find something that interests me. I've started doing social media, just staying in contact with a bunch of brands I like. Obviously, doing some work for Outmap now.
7:18 Just keeping every door open possible, meeting every person I meet, staying super intrigued with them and what they're doing. And just, yeah, trying to set up something, hopefully in the ski industry, not necessarily a ski instructor or ski guide, but maybe working for a ski company like Outmap or something else that I'm really passionate about would be ideal.
Yeah. I think, maybe in the social media era, we're fed a lot of information that you can make a quick buck. And, oh, just make content and then monetize it and you'll be wealthy or whatever you see being sprayed on Instagram that makes out that there's some really easy path to not doing a lot of work. But I guess the reality is it does just take a lot of hustle, right?
Yeah, it does, and I've definitely realized that this year, yeah, you definitely still need to work really hard.
It's sad. It's a shame. I mean, I wish it was true.
Yeah. And at the moment here, I'm having a great time. I pretty much ski every day, but I start work at 3:00 PM, and then I work from like 3:00 till 10:00 PM, working in a lodge here. And then I'm normally up till like 1:00, 2:00 AM doing
8:47 Whether it's making social media posts or doing some work online or something. Having very limited sleep. But I love it, so it's all good. But you got to work hard and hustle and make those connections when you can and be just very open-minded to all opportunities that come your way.
Yeah. Do you, I mean, are you leaning one particular way? Are you beginning to shape an idea of what a career in this space might look like?
To be honest, not really. I really do love the idea of running businesses and stuff. I've always been interested in it from a young age. So I do want to be involved in, like, the running of some sort of business, preferably in the ski industry.
9:45 I think it'd be really interesting.
I think one of the tricky things is as well, it's easy to be overwhelmed by choice. It's the luxury of choice. And you can do anything, but you can't do everything. What's, what's kind of steering that decision-making?
I don't know. I'm just following my passion, I guess. And I don't know, I'm just keeping an open mind to everything that comes my way. Just saying yes to everything and seeing what comes from it.
Yeah. If you add value to anything you do, you'll always be fine, has always been my approach. Tell me about that passion.
It's, yeah.
What is it?
It's almost to my downfall sometimes, but yeah, skiing is just taken a grip on me in the last couple years, especially. I think last season in Japan, we came over here, we had 19 meters of snow in one season. It was a, like a record-breaking season. Someone was saying best season in 60 to 70 years.
11:02 And after that season, I just realized it's the thing I'm the most passionate about, and it's what I have the most fun doing, and I want to try center my life around doing it as much as I can. And that's all that really matters.
Do you have goals ski-wise?
I actually don't. I really just have so much fun. It's just going out there and being skiing with people, skiing with friends, and having fun. That's all that matters. I don't really have any goals in terms of doing these crazy things or anything.
11:51 It's just, how much fun can I have in skiing with people. I really enjoy skiing with good friends and new people and stuff.
So you're a type one fun type skier. You're Seeking out the riskier end of ski mountaineering?
Oh, I enjoy it and I definitely see myself getting there more and more as I get more experienced with ski mountaineering. But at the base of it's just I love just having fun.
What's the journey been like to becoming a competent ski skier, ski mountaineer? 'Cause it can be a bit of a rocky road at times.
Yeah. It's been pretty good for me. I started skiing when I was like three. Very young. My parents, loved skiing, but they didn't start skiing till they were like late 30s, or late 20s, sorry. So but yeah, I was very lucky they got me in very young.
13:00 Skiing pretty much every year since I was like three. Then a couple years of ski instructing, taught me the good foundations of skiing, I guess. And then probably like three or four years ago now, I started... I did my AST 1 and started ski mountaineering, and then it's just been a slow progression from there. Learning from anyone I can, reading as many books as I can, doing all the courses I can, and yeah, I still consider myself pretty, pretty new to it, and just trying to learn off people, I guess, that are much more experienced than me.
13:40 But this year we've definitely taken a couple steps and skied some bigger and gnarlier lines than we have before. It's been really fun.
Yeah. What have been some of the lessons learned?
Gosh. The biggest one for me is just, I'd be standing at the top of the line and I'm just stoking so and it's just learning to calm down and make sure you take that factor out of it, and really make the most well-informed decision you can.
14:12 And just not just thinking about how good the skiing's gonna be, 'cause that's when you can put yourself in danger.
Yeah, for sure. Human factors are massively underestimated.
Yeah, for sure.
And your stoke is awesome, but it also has a downside. But it sounds like you've correctly identified that potential downside.
Yeah, that's definitely the thing I have to focus on the most. Especially in Japan, there's a lot of lift-access backcountry terrain, super easy. Stuff that's just like 10, 15 minute boot pack from the top of the lift, or even just dropping off the side of a resort.
14:53 And it's like you get there so easily and you're just standing there looking at a completely open, just powder bowl. And it's so easy to just drop in and go. You don't have to worry about the skin up or anything else. And yeah, pulling back in those situations and taking your time is something that I really need
And
Keep working on.
Yeah. And it creates a lot of complacency as well, hey. Because you ski in that kind of terrain so much, and 99 times out of 100 you don't have a problem. Yeah, you become a little complacent around reasonably serious terrain.
Yeah, for sure.
Do they control it much in Japan? Is there much avalanche control?
Yeah, they do. Definitely in the resorts they control as much. Definitely seems to be quite a bit more of a stable snowpack here in general than most other places in the world. But it's definitely not an excuse for doing, stupid stuff. But yeah, they control it. They do bombing. They do a lot seems to do a lot more ski cutting than, places in Canada and Europe and stuff, where they just blow up the side of the mountain and see what happens.
Ski cutting is the low-budget, high-risk version of avalanche control.
Yeah. They're pretty crazy out here, some of
Oh, really?
Japanese ski patrol. They're. Yeah.
I've been to Japan quite a few times, but never skied there. What can people expect when they come and ski Japan? It sounds like it's not just the experience. Sounds like it's a place you're falling for as well.
Yeah. Obviously, besides the skiing being what I think is, like, the best in the world, the culture is unbelievable. I think the Japanese people are the nicest people in the world. Their whole culture is built around respect and respecting each other. Everyone's so nice to each other. It's the safest place in the world. We literally leave our car keys in the car, in our driveway unlocked every night.
Yeah. There's
And
There's basically no, almost no crime in Japan.
No crime. Yeah. I don't know anybody that locks their house or anything. And then obviously you have the food. The food's unbelievable. The cities, all the cities are so unique and different. And there's just so much history. They're such an old culture with so much history. So, I don't know. I just love it here, and I get so excited every year when I come back, not just for the skiing, but just to be living in Japan again.
And what's the Japanese ski culture like amongst the locals?
Well, there's definitely a stronger boarding, snowboarding community in Japan than skiing.
There are more boarders than skiers? Okay, interesting.
Yeah. It is a bit weird when you come over here for the first time. It's probably just edging more snowboarders than skiers now, whereas pretty much everywhere else in the world it's definitely more skiers. But yeah, I feel like the community amongst locals is strong. Especially amongst all the people that have grown up in Hakuba, there's a very strong local community.
18:25 But I'm not too sure about the broader Japanese just average everyday person. I'm not too sure if they're into skiing that much. It just Like there's a lot of... Sorry? Yeah.
Well, I was gonna say that when I've been to Japan, they don't open up that much. Obviously there's a language barrier. They're not effusive, openly enthusiastic people, is my general observation. They're incredibly polite, but you don't hear someone talking in the same way you're talking of how stoked you are and how excited you are. That doesn't seem a very Japanese way of communicating. So, is it kinda hard to crack that local ski community?
Yeah, I think it's very hard. And that is true. They are very much more reserved. But I've run into some Japanese guys out in the mountains that are just losing their mind.
That's great.
It's great. But I think, yeah, a lot of them have grown up in these smaller towns, and it's just their life. They're so used to it. And they have a very small, tight-knit community, and they don't necessarily let that many people in. But yeah, I think there's definitely still a lot of stoke around it, for sure.
I don't know about you, when I'm in Japan, I always feel like I'm doing something slightly wrong. 'Cause there are so many cultural And the way that you pay for your meal, and the way you sit down for your meal, and the way you eat, and I just feel like I'm always getting something a little bit wrong.
20:03 Are you finding your way a bit?
Well... Yeah, definitely getting used to it by one of my best mates who I live and work with, his family is Japanese. So I'm kind of always moving around with him, and he'll pull me up in certain situations. Well, the other day we were in 7-Eleven. We were standing outside the store eating our food, and apparently, standing up and eating and just at the front of the store is disrespectful and not kind of what the locals do.
Oh, really?
And yeah. So it's just little things like that are so different in Japan to the rest of the world. It does take some getting used to. But it's just like you just gotta think kinda how they do. What's the most respectful thing to do in situations.
21:02 And you should be fine. Just don't, I don't know, don't do obvious disrespectful things.
Yeah, no, for sure. And the other thing I always remember from Japan is the insane cleanliness. I've never been anywhere you could eat your breakfast off the street in Tokyo.
Yeah, it's unbelievable. For a city of, what? Almost 80 million You don't see a piece of rubbish anywhere.
No, it's crazy. I remember we were working in an arena once, and bear in mind, it's an arena. They hold concerts and sports events. And until the event began, we weren't allowed to wear shoes in the arena. Where else in the world can you be building an event and putting cameras in and unfolding
21:50 And you're not even allowed to wear shoes? But you could see your face in the floor of the arena, it was so clean. But that's Japan for you.
Yeah. Well, all the houses, they have the little slippers you put on when you come in. And I just think it's the greatest thing ever. When I have a house when I'm older, I'm definitely doing that. How much cleaner it keeps your house when you just take your shoes off at the front and put slippers on the whole time. It's unbelievable. We have to clean this lodge that I work in, and there's, what? 50-odd people staying in here, and the floors are just always immaculate because no dirt is ever brought in from outside.
22:28 It's amazing.
But isn't that great? One of the beauties I've found of skiing down the years is it's taken me all to all kinds of places I would never have otherwise gone. You might visit Japan once in your lifetime as a non-skier, but isn't it great that you've been able to immerse yourself in it through your sport?
Yeah, it's amazing. There's no other place really quite like Japan. I think a lot of skiers are starting to realize just how crazy this place is now. Like, as I said, I've been coming here every year for almost the last 20 years now, and it's always been a lot of Australians and Kiwis over here.
23:13 And I feel like a lot of Americans, Canadians, Europeans are always like, "Why would we bother going to Japan when we have such good skiing over here?" but definitely in the last couple years, last five years or so, there's just a lot of Americans and Europeans showing up everywhere.
23:35 I think everyone's starting to catch on with just how unbelievable this place is in every aspect. You come here for two weeks, you're pretty much guaranteed to get like 40 centimeters of snow a couple of the days, and then the culture's just unbelievable. Food's unbelievable. People are unbelievable.
23:55 So yeah, just such a great place.
Where else is on the skiing bucket list? I guess it might be quicker to list where it isn't.
Yeah. I still haven't been to Wyoming, Jackson Hole area. Feel like that's gotta be a bucket list place All, all skiers. And then I'd love to go skiing in Alaska one day.
Have you done much in Europe?
Yeah. I've been to a couple places around Europe, in France and Italy and yeah, I've been to a couple resorts around there. It's amazing there, massive mountains, so much terrain to choose from. But it'd be good if they got a little bit more snow.
Yeah, the last few years that's definitely been a problem. I was living in the Alps for the whole of the 2010s, and winters were pretty good, but it seems like quickly dropped off a cliff.
Yeah. Well, this is a conversation that I guess everybody's gonna start talking about a bit, bit more, and I was actually having with some friends last night about how much longer is skiing gonna be around for? Yeah, with the global temperatures rising so much, and everywhere seems to be struggling, especially this year, the start of this year.
25:26 Normally there's one or two places around the world that have a bad season to start, but then Japan might have a bad start to the season, but then Canada's having a great start or whatever. Seems like everywhere around the world this year really struggled at the start with just super warm weather and rain and stuff, so.
Yeah. It just came so late. And my observation living in the Alps for 15 years was I think maybe this isn't true now, but certainly when I was there, you got the same amount of snow every year, but it would just come in the most random dumps. Even the first couple of winters I lived in Chamonix, it would be cold, December, January, February, begin to warm up March, be warm in April. It was kind of a pattern. Whereas now it can snow, they can get a record snowfall and then 10 days later it's 14 degrees.
26:23 It seems like the total snowfall may end up being the same, but it's just so erratic the way it comes, and the temperatures are so erratic that it either becomes super sketchy or the snow, it's, the snow falls and before you can even ski it's rotten.
Yeah, that
It's a really strange lack of pattern.
Yeah. That's what we're experiencing this year, at least here in Hakuba. We'll get like 60 to 80 centimeters of snow over a day or two, and then, yeah, like last night it rained. Yeah, definitely experiencing that sort of thing here as well.
Well, I know you've got to get out skiing 'cause it's morning for you. Assuming you can still ski for another five years and there's still some snow left in 2030, how do you see the next five years going for you?
Oh, gosh, this was a conversation I was having last night with someone actually. It's a hard one. I don't know. I just think if I follow my passions of skiing and surfing and being outdoors, work as hard as I can, and keep a very open mind to all opportunities that come my way, make good connections with people, then it'll all sort itself out.
28:03 I don't necessarily have a plan, but I definitely have faith that it'll all work itself out.
I am 100% behind that Sentiment. Yeah. It's worked out okay for me. So, yeah. I wouldn't say no to an extra million bucks, gotta be honest, but it's been a cool journey and I'm sure yours is gonna be even cooler. And yeah, hats off 'cause I love that you're just basically so psyched that this has to be your life and you'll make it work.
Yeah. That's kind
That kind of desperation to make it happen is a pretty powerful thing.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think it will. If you set your mind to something and you work hard enough, I feel like my a couple years ago, I was really just like, I know I want to be able to do all the things I love as much as I can, but I was just doing them and just working a bit. But now, as you said before, it's not just all gonna fall in your lap. You actually have to really work hard. You're not just gonna start posting like a couple things on social media and make all this money.
29:26 You still gotta really work hard, to make it all happen. And yeah, the last year or so I've been really doing that more, and it's crazy how much things have changed, so. Yeah. It's all looking positive, which is great.
I love it. All right. I'm gonna let you go. I really appreciate your time. Have you got some fresh snow to ski today?
Yeah. I don't know. It's just, like, 20 centimeters or so. In Japan, we don't really get out of bed for that. It's a yeah, no, it's a bit warm today, so yeah, we'll have some fun.
Sounds like a first world problem to me.
Yeah. No, definitely. That'll be a good day.
Awesome. All right. Hey, Tom, really appreciate hearing all about it and yeah, enjoy your powder and I can't wait to follow the journey for the next few years. Where can people find you if they want to follow along as well?
Probably on Instagram or TikTok is where I'm most active. So it's just Tom Odell. I'll post every day just documenting my life, I guess.
All right. Go enjoy it. Thank you.
Perfect. Thanks, Charlie.
