Today I'm talking to one of the most competent outdoor all-rounders I've ever - Troy Becker. A vastly experienced and skilled outdoorsman, Troy has poured 25 years into Adaptive Adventures - an organisation dedicated to getting disabled people into the outdoors. The story of the last quarter century is incredible and inspiring in equal measure.
Key Takeaways & Insights
Troy got the idea for Adaptive Adventures snowmobiling with his wife's sister.
The sister has Down syndrome and visited from Winnipeg. She had 'the need for speed,' and 'you could not pry her fingers off of the handlebars of the snowmobile.' Troy calls it an 'aha moment' and thought of a nonprofit with a bit of insurance, taking people out maybe once a month.
Troy started the organisation when his employer's BC office closed.
Troy registered a society, put a few family on the board and borrowed a piece of equipment for the first hikes. The first overnighter came within 2 years, and within 3 they were buying kayaks. In the fourth year, he thinks, came mountain biking and cycling. At the time of recording, the group had run multi-day trips for 23 years.
Troy says every Alberta park came to require accessible bathrooms, even in the backcountry.
Alberta Parks began working with the group on accessibility around 2006, Troy thinks. He cannot recall exactly how the rule works. In the backcountry, accessible means a doorway wide enough, and big enough to assist somebody in and out.
Early challenges were Troy and his wife's own time and money, and people's mindset.
Troy and his wife put in so much of their own money that, he says, they would 'have another house in the Okanagan.' The other challenge was education: many people 'denounce someone's abilities based on presentation,' and many born with restrictions are 'sometimes put in a glass bubble by society, but not by themselves.'
A teacher said a student could not go; classmates pulled him to the top.
On a Cathedral trip, 11 inches of snow fell overnight and 4 classmates went home. Of the rest, 9 to 10 pulled the student on the TrailRider to the top. Troy thinks they were gone about 5 hours. The teacher apologised. The student told Troy it was 'a total icebreaker' at his new school.
Troy tells trip leaders: 'Plan 50%, have at least five backup ideas.'
The number one thing everyone in the organisation is taught is 'we don't use no.' Instead, they say 'we need to plan, we need to research.' Clients are 'part of the team,' and will get cold, hot and hungry like everyone else.
Complete podcast transcript
Hello and welcome back to the Outmap Podcast, A Guide in Life. I'm Charlie Boscoe, and today I'm talking to Troy Becker. Now, we've spoken to some specialists on this podcast, but there can't be many people out there with the all-round skill set of Troy. By profession, he's a firefighter, but he's also a voluntary member of search and rescue, including the helicopter part of search and rescue.
0:38 He can run, climb, ski, paddle, bike. Basically, if it's outdoors and it involves moving under your own steam, Troy can probably do it. He's also putting those skills to use not just for his own enjoyment, but for the benefit of those less able than himself. Twenty-five years ago, inspired by his wife's sister, who has Down syndrome, he started what is now Adaptive Adventures, and in the quarter of a century since, has taken literally thousands of disabled people into the outdoors and given them experiences they couldn't have dreamed of without his help.
1:19 If you want to learn about Adaptive Adventures, go to adaptiveadventures.ca. So Troy, welcome. I've done podcasts in lots of different locations. Jersey, overlooking the sea in Jersey in the Channel Islands. Did one in Central London. But I've never done one on the deck of my own house, so this is a first.
1:51 Normally, I have to travel to other people, but you live about 50 meters away, so it's pretty simple this time.
Yeah, you look down on me every day.
Literally?
Quite literally.
Only literally, not figuratively. Yeah, thanks for doing it. This is great. For a bit of context, Troy and I are both in the same, search and rescue team. My wife works for Troy's organization, and we're also both doing an adventure race. Well, you're leading the team in an adventure race in July, so we've got quite a lot of overlap.
Yes, we do. We're very different in height, but we have a lot of overlap.
Ouch. Ouch. You've got a few years on me, but there's also a difference in body fat percentage as I fear, so I'm losing on all fronts on that side, yeah. But no, thanks for doing it. I'm really looking forward to this 'cause, I've often found with people, even people I know, you don't actually ask them, "How'd you get started? How did this come about?"
2:55 Especially as you get a bit later in life, there's so much hinterland for people that you just, you don't ask about, so.
Very true. Very true.
Yeah, it's great. So firstly, I know we're gonna talk primarily about Adaptive Adventures, but you started Adaptive Adventures, so we have to start with you grew up here in the Okanagan. Is that right?
Yeah. I was born in Surrey, but we moved here when I was three or four years old, so I grew up in a town called Winfield, which is now Lake Country. So just north of here.
And then you moved around a bit since then, right?
Yeah, I've been in and out of the valley. So I was down in the States for a year or so, and then I've been out in Alberta and different places. Yeah, my family's always been here in the Okanagan, and I always come back here. It's like any place you go to, there's lots of-- There's a lot of great places in this world, but still, this is one of my favorite.
It's a pretty good all-round lifestyle, eh?
It is.
Nowhere's perfect, but it's nice.
It is. You got the lake that we're overlooking right now, and we don't actually hear any of the motorboats right now 'cause it's still the spring, which is a blessing. But you got the snow-capped peaks while the golf courses are still open, so pretty sweet.
And it's by far the warmest place in Canada, which isn't saying that much, but I love the blue sky and the warmth here.
Yeah, it's, unbelievable when you get the blue sky and the lake here. It just makes you wanna go out and paddle and not do work, really. Thank God my work is outdoors.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So how did that come about? How did you discover outdoor sports? 'Cause a remarkable number of people, even in a place like this or Vancouver, not outdoorsy people. How did it, how did you find it?
I guess outdoor activities in a very basic concept is something I was always, involved with in my parents. So whether it was going out and getting firewood or something like that, or I used to bike to school or walk to school all the time just because of where we lived in Lake Country, which is Winfield.
5:09 And then swimming outdoors in the lake, going fishing and stuff like that. I was never really into a lot of the activities I am now. My mom was a very, conservative, person when it came to risk. So getting to play, hockey and rugby was already on the far extreme for her.
5:33 But it wasn't until actually I moved away to play hockey that I started to really get into more, wilderness-based and adventure-based activities.
Did you go to Alberta at that stage?
No. Actually, I ended up in Wisconsin. So I was there for a bit, and then I ended up in Red Deer And Calgary, Red Deer area was beautiful because you're right there in the Rockies or the foothills. And yeah, just started to Get exposed to more outdoor activities.
6:10 And then when I met my wife in, when was that? 1997, she was quite outdoorsy, and then that started to really push the envelope as to what we were doing and what we were exposed to doing things like joining Search and Rescue and starting to do adventure races and stuff like that. And then, her sister had Down syndrome, and she would come in from Winnipeg. And every year she came from Winnipeg, she had a great lifestyle there. The family grew up in Winnipeg, but her lifestyle there was that she got awarded to the province, 'cause at that time, way back in the '80s, they had a phenomenal program in Manitoba.
6:55 And she's got to travel the world, actually, as someone with Down syndrome. Plus, she also had a full-time job with Manitoba Hydro. She got to live in another house with three or four other, of her best friends. And she loved coming and visiting, but she always wanted to go home.
7:15 She had a home there, and she loved it. It's really admirable what the Winnipeg Manitoba government did out there. But when she came out here, we would do things like go snowmobiling and stuff like that. And I always thought I had the desire to never come inside after being out on a sled or doing something and just wanting to stay out there.
7:39 She was next level, the need for speed. And once she got it, you could not pry her fingers off of the handlebars of the snowmobile, and you were stuck out there for hours and hours going into nightfall. It was her place, like outdoors, fresh air, and activity. And it was like an aha moment for me.
8:05 And then I realized how important that relationship, for my wife was with her sister. And I said, "Well, why don't we start doing something like this in the Okanagan and just give people a opportunity once a month or something, or just create a nonprofit, have a bit of insurance, and just take people out and give a good connection?" I had no idea, what that was gonna turn into.
It's a recurring theme when people start projects. "I had no idea."
That's exactly it. Yeah, it was all about providing people a connection and experience, and it has just completely exploded. And honestly, I don't even think we're touching the tip of the iceberg in terms of what the potential is for it and what the need for it is in this world in general.
Yeah, before we started recording, you said that 15% of the world has a disability, and that percentage is increasing because disabled people are living longer than they used to. And yeah, I think you said that, people are suffering terrible injuries in war but they're now surviving them.
9:21 I don't wanna use the word market, but there's a lot of people out there in need of access to the outdoors who might not be able to go and do it themselves.
Yeah, that's right. Even when you look at the demographics of age, we're all getting older every day, and even the life expectancy of people is going much later. And as people are living later in life or living longer, they're more exposed to more potential limitations, that restrict their abilities to do things.
9:53 And a common term a lot of people use sometimes is that we're all temporarily able, able-bodied because we come into this world not being able to walk and in a lot of cases, we leave this world in a very similar state.
Yeah. Yeah. Had you had any exposure to people with disabilities before you met your wife's sister?
Yes, I have a little bit, but not to that degree. It was more to do with, even somewhat to do with marginalized populations that were, restricted. My dad was always the type of guy that he saw a homeless person, he would never give them money, but he'd go in and buy them a coffee and bring it out to them, right?
Yeah.
So I guess there was always that. And when I saw people bullying people at school and stuff like that, it was something that always bothered me, and I would always do my best to speak up or step in. I guess I've always had a soft spot for helping people, and I guess that's why, whether it's search and rescue or the fire department or this society that, Adaptive Adventures and stuff, it's kinda just been a place that's suitable for me.
Yeah. And how did the journey begin? 'Cause again, and I think we're all guilty of this, "Oh, start a society, get some insurance." There's a bit more to it, right? Or was there not back then, I guess? 'Cause now I feel like you'd be researching it on the internet and... Did you just go to insurance and get yourself insured? And what would...
11:40 How did you start it?
Yeah, kind of. I was working for a technical support company, and they shut down the office, here in BC. And so then I got a severance package, and I basically went home and said, "Well, we thought about doing this. I'm just gonna start it up and then get it running, and then I'll go and find a job type thing." So that was the whole beginning of it, and basically I started trying to come up with a name and registered as a society and put a few family on the board to Get everything going and borrow the piece of equipment and started our first couple of hikes, and then people were just like, "This is really cool." And so people were getting momentum, and within two years we did our first overnighter, and then within three years we started, buying kayaks.
12:32 And then I think our fourth year starting to go into mountain biking and cycling programs and doing BC Blind Sports, tandem biking races and yeah, then going up north to doing Bowron Lakes and sea kayak trips and doing things out in Kananaskis. Alberta Parks jumped on with us, back in probably, I wanna say '06 or something like that.
12:58 So they were trying to create accessibility for all Canadians and they had a gentleman by the name of Don Den Hoed Carruthers who did a thesis on it. So Alberta was really pushing hard back then on what accessibility meant outdoors and to a point that they actually, took this paper and put it through legislation or something like that. I can't remember exactly how it all works, and that's all political, which I try to stay out of. But they basically now have a thing that every park has to have accessible bathrooms, including even in the backcountry.
13:37 So what accessible is in the backcountry is very different than what we see in the front country or in cities, but it just means basically, has it got a doorway wide enough and is it big enough that we can assist somebody to get in and out? Because obviously, you have four feet of snow, that wheelchair ramp isn't being
13:58 Every day by some park ranger. That's for sure. So yeah, it's really cool what's going on there and they've been at the forefront of it. So we were a big part of helping that, and as a result, there was a lot of organizations that started up in Alberta because they would bring us out for a week or two. We'd do a bunch of front country experiences and do an overnighter for four or five days and show people what's possible, and that stemmed a bunch of programs starting up in Alberta.
So what were some of the biggest challenges those first few years? What were the biggest learnings? What was the steepest learning curve? What were you overcoming in those first couple of years?
I would say hands down probably a couple things. One, Is 100% a massive challenge. And luckily I had a wife that was on board with all this because the amount of money we've put into it over the years, we'd have another house in the Okanagan, I guess you could say. So there was a lot of time committed, but there was also a lot of funding, put into it by ourselves.
15:17 But we were passionate about it, and that's what we wanted to do, so we're good with that. I think the other thing is really education about what's possible and breaking down a mindset. A lot of people really denounce someone's abilities based on presentation. They don't learn what pushes them and drives them inside, and what pushes us or drives us inside will far exceed what our physical limitations can do.
15:59 And that's from a volunteer perspective, that's from a staff perspective, that's from a client perspective, that's from a care aide's perspective, that is from a family member's perspective. Everybody has naysayers, and some of them it's themselves and yeah. How much you can break down those barriers really will determine what kind of experience level you can give somebody, and it's amazing. So many people...
16:31 I always look at all these people that are out there that in their minds have no, restrictions or disability. Well, what makes them want to do something? It's usually they have a desire for adrenaline or a desire to push themselves physically or push themselves mentally. They wanna learn, they wanna be part of something, they wanna, be included, they wanna be. They live off the or a rush of endorphins or whatever it is, right? Just like you or I. Why do we choose to do something?
17:15 And so you'll hear people say, "Well, why would you take a person to do that?" And it's like, well, hold on a sec. Just 'cause they physically aren't able to do it in the way we see it doesn't mean they don't wanna live with adrenaline or experience or go somewhere or explore or push their limits or see something new and aren't they still want to take risk.
17:42 And for some people, risk is leveraging their mortgage. Right? And for some of us, taking a risk is squirrel suiting and
Everyone finds their level, right?
Everybody finds a level. But a lot of people that are, born with certain ailments or restrictions are sometimes put in a glass bubble by society, but not by themselves.
That's a That's a great point, yeah
And why?
Yeah.
'Cause we think we know what's going on in their mind?
Yeah.
But yet in their mind, they want the same things. They want to feel. And that's what this is all about. And then the more you can connect that and give that to people, but in order to do that, you have to, yourself first change your mindset.
18:42 Otherwise, you can't hear it in somebody else. And I've even had that case from even people with disabilities advocating for certain things for other people and saying, "Well, we don't need that piece of equipment," or, "We don't need that to do this," because nobody will want to do that.
19:05 And you get that with someone who's sometimes gets an acquired injury. And so if you get an injury and you've lived 10, 15, 30 years in this, in our world doing whatever you want, ever how you want it. You got to go downhill skiing, you got to go mountain biking, you got to go rock climbing, you got to do all those activities, and you were very independent doing them, and now you have an injury, and now you're like, everything you want to do, you wanna make sure you're in control and do it yourself.
19:41 That's fine. If that's important to you, 100%, let's give you that opportunity. But that doesn't mean that everybody needs to be able to do it 100% by themselves. They might be willing to actually go in a fighter jet and let someone else fly the plane. Willing, right, to go into a Formula 1 race car and not be the driver. I'd be happy going into, just going in a F1 fighter jet or F16 fighter jet and just being in it. I don't care if I fly it.
Yeah, I don't wanna fly it.
Just take me up it. Well, that's the same thing for if you look at two different types of disabilities and someone's like, "Oh, I have full control over this and I can go wherever I want." Can you go wherever you want? If I can't go up there by myself, I don't wanna go.
20:29 That's fine you don't wanna go up there, but I still wanna go up there. And that person that's in a much more physically limited state can't even get halfway to that objective of yours, will be like, "I will go there no matter who takes me 'cause it's gonna give me that F1 or F16," whatever it is. Don't know my war planes very good.
20:52 Experience. And that's what this is all about, is connecting and giving people what they're looking for.
Yeah. That's such an interesting point. I often ponder this 'cause I suppose you and I both do things that are not easy all the time. You do adventurous trips, you put yourself at risk, you have physical discomfort, and it's a strange thing about human beings that there aren't that many people in the world who just maximize comfort. Most people want some kind of challenge. Physical, their job is hard. Having kids is hard.
21:27 Cooking healthy food. Most people, almost everyone wants some kind of In their life. And I think, I'm not sure why that is. It's a weird thing 'cause it's actually you'd have thought just being as comfortable as possible would be the best thing for a human. But for what some reason it's not. But I think, thinking about my own perception, I wouldn't...
21:50 I would see someone with a disability and I wouldn't necessarily think what kind of challenge are they looking for. So you make a good point. And I've been training with you for this adventure race coming up, and we're taking one of the Adaptive Adventures, board members, Clayton, on the trip with us in the TrailRider and in adaptive bikes and all sorts. But I'd never thought of it in terms of they're looking for a challenge, not just an experience.
22:19 Did that just da... I mean, how do you, how did you figure all this stuff out? Is it just observing for long enough?
No. You know, honestly,
Maybe I'm demonstrating my lack of empathy and you're demonstrating A high level of empathy, but the challenge element wouldn't immediately occur to me.
You know what? I'm not 100% sure. I don't even know if I could really answer that. I can speculate. Is it because I always had a desire to do more when I was younger, but I was always told, "Oh, that's too risky," or whatever.
22:55 And it's like, well, hold on, but that's what I want to try, right? And if I hurt myself, but I still wanna try it, right? And by all means, don't get me wrong, you look at my childhood and what I was allowed to do and had the Waltons family and everything. So I have absolutely nothing to complain about.
23:20 But when you have it good, you always want a bit more, right?
Yeah.
So, yeah, I need some self-reflection there and reminder of like, put that down. So, but when it comes to doing, activities and then when I look at a bunch of the things I've done over the years and the number of times I've been unconscious at the bottom of a mountain bike jump or that's slammed into a Suburban, with a paraglider and trapped under or knocked out on a log going down a river, and luckily somebody was there. When you think of the number of times in life that you were fortunate, and then to think what you could be living life like right now and what would that mean?
24:19 Does that mean I would not want to do any of those activities again? No, I'd still like to do those activities. And I'd still like to think that I could go out in the outdoors and have an experience in Mother Nature and stuff like that. And when you look at just like us sitting here right now under a blue sky and hearing the birds and the rustling of the trees, how many people living in a city in walls and on public transit actually get to experience this level of lifestyle?
Yeah.
How many people get that break from life that you and I can get on when I went mountain biking for two hours this morning and there's nobody up there I saw, or we get to go for three days of backcountry skiing or something like That reset is invaluable for anyone, and yet so few even get to experience it, and yet so few are constantly told what they should do or couldn't do, and yet they don't even get to have the opportunity to experience that reset.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's really hard to maintain that perspective, but just spending some time interacting with you and Clayton and Adaptive Adventures, it really does bring that home to you. I think it makes you a better person.
Yeah, I think it does too, and I think you see it in so many of the volunteers, summer staff, practicum students even that come out with us. And they come in thinking of this as one thing, and I honestly believe a lot of them leave with a totally different perspective. It must change them because so many of them, and I would say the definitely the majority of them, have definitely volunteered and come out on trips after they've been a summer staff or a practicum student. So there was no need for them to, but they're still coming out and they build relationships. I think they also realize the power of what they're doing and the reward, for themselves.
26:51 And I look at there's one example I have, and it was a trip that we did years ago, and a person had asked us if, we could take their son on this trip, and I said, "Yeah, sure. No problem." It was a trip up in Cathedral, and I'm like, "Yeah, no worries. Just tell me when, and we'll do it." And they wanted to go with their classmates in grade 11, I think it was.
27:15 And so she went and talked to the teacher, and the teacher's like, "No, no, he can't go. You don't understand this environment, right?" And she's like, "Well, what do you mean? I talked to Troy over at Adaptive Adventures, and he said that they can do it and they've done it before." And he goes, "Yeah, I don't think they understand Clayton's, level." And I'm like, " Clayton's level is not..." Clayton's very, restrictive, in what he can do in some ways.
27:47 But by far, he's nowhere near what some people are, right?
Yeah.
And he has an adventurous mind and everything, and it took weeks and meetings and basically being deceitful and saying like, "Hey, you just need to let us get up there at the camp and we won't take him anywhere. We'll just let him camp in the campsite and that's it." And they agreed to that.
28:11 And it ended up snowing a foot of snow, 11 inches overnight. Four of their, classmates all went home the next day. Clayton was fine. We the group that was left all decided to go for this hike. Teacher's like, "Yeah, we're going hiking, so we'll see you when you get back." And we're like, "Yeah, sure. Okay. No big deal." And they took off and my assistant there, Rob, I turned to him and I said, "As soon as they leave, you get the TrailRider ready and we're going for a hike." Of course, he knew that already. And then, sure enough, so we start going for a hike and it's like I said, 11 centimeter, 11 inches of snow.
28:48 And we're starting to hike along this trail and everything. After about an hour and a half, we caught up to their group and the teacher's just like dumbfounded that we had made it that far. And at that point, he still at that point said, "Okay, well, we're gonna start heading up the steeper hill now, so you guys will have to turn around and we'll just meet you back at camp." And I'm like, "Okay.
29:10 Sure."
I know. Having been on a few sessions on the TrailRider with you, I know where this is going.
And so he starts heading up and at this point there was like nine girls and one guy left in their group, 'cause the rest of the guys had gone home. So this is mostly a girls trip now. And they started going and then we started to follow, and then the last girl in line basically turned around as we're going up and says, "Can I help?" And I said, "Hmm, you sure can." And I just happened to have a harness and some rope and tied her in, and she's like, "Really?" I'm like, "Yeah, you can help pull." And then after another five or 10 minutes, guess what the next student in front of her saw?
29:50 And so I think by that time, as we started heading up, probably within about 20 minutes, we probably had five or six of them hooked in. And eventually we caught up to the group again, and the teacher had stopped and he was just like... I think that's when the light finally went on.
30:09 I basically said, "Yeah, you can go wherever you want, but we'll be following." I said, "You don't have to worry. He's not here with you. He's here with us."
Oh, I love that.
And in the end, we ended up with nine to 10 of them, pulling him, go all the way up to the top and got a beautiful picture overlooking the lakes and the valley there and everything. It was awesome. And we get back down to the base camp.
30:39 I think we were gone five hours or something like that. And the teacher just came up and said, "You know, I have to apologize, I had no idea." And I said, "No," and I said, "Honestly, I wasn't gonna convince Otherwise. So until I could show you weren't going to be able to see it." And he goes, "Well, you know what was really strange is, you remember the girl that, in this color, I can't remember what it was, and I go, "Yeah." And she he goes, "I didn't think she would actually be able to do the hike on her own at all." She was the one over the next three days that never stopped pulling on the TrailRider.
Oh, so you're affecting more than one life.
Exactly. She was no longer, it was about herself and her limitations. She was more focused on what the group was doing and someone else, so then she could overcome her own barriers. And she actually proved to herself she was way stronger and fit and mentally stronger than she knew, but as long as she wasn't focusing on herself. And same with the rest of the classmates. And then, Clayton had moved schools in September 1st. This trip was in the third week of September, so he got back right at the end of September.
31:59 And I talked to Clayton about a week or two later and he goes, "Oh man," he goes, "I go down the hallway and all the girls are high-fiving me and saying hi." He goes, "Nobody would even talk to me the first week." And he goes, "It was a total icebreaker." And he goes, "All of a sudden, people know who I was, and I was somebody and everybody was acknowledging me." And then I guess he actually did a presentation to the whole school on his experience.
Wow.
But when you look at that, a trip like that, and people say, "Well, you took one person on a trip and you did all that just for one person?" No, you're doing it for that person, 100%, that is a big part of it. But all the volunteers are getting something out of it. That teacher's mindset and perspective has been changed for every other class he will ever teach. All those students that were involved in those trips and their families, and as they grow up and go into the working force, it's gonna change how they manage, deal, and look at things on a day-to-day basis now.
33:12 And then all the people who listened to that presentation that Clayton did, the video that was produced from it's way bigger than that. You're talking about an impact to society, and there's always gonna be another grade 11 group and another outdoor ed teacher next year that is gonna have to have those barriers broken down too.
Yeah, but it's a compounding effect, isn't it? You change one person's life, they tell two people. I don't remember the stat, but it's something like an eight order. From one to two, if you do it's something like eight, 10 times, you've basically got the entire world's population.
33:54 Because compounding is so powerful. Maybe it's 20 times. I don't know. It's, but it's remarkably For word to spread. I don't think it's selfish, there's also an element for you, right? This is, this has given you a huge amount in your life.
Oh, massive. You look at someone who's gone through the knocks on the head and honestly, a lot of people are surprised I can even function the way I do function. And I'm extremely fortunate. You hear everybody talk about their support network at home or something like that, and they're, you know, receiving something or thanking everybody.
34:39 I gotta say, God bless my wife, because if it wasn't for my wife, A, I would never have been exposed to her To start this. B, the amount that I've put her through with all of my concussions and all the exposure to the work that I do in the fire service and rescues and stuff like that, and everybody looks at you and they say, "Wow," like, "there's a person that's really fit and has no things." Everybody has challenges.
35:12 Everybody has breaking points and limitations, and luckily I have a support system that knows when I need to be reset. And I need an ice tub or I need to be controlled. And that's what's basically enabled me to do this for a number of years. And luckily, she embraces it and she's one of the ones that comes on all these trips, and she's been...
35:43 Does all the cooking on them, and yet she in herself has pulled that TrailRider or she's pushed people up the side of mountains and yeah.
But what has maintained you through it? Because it's a lot, right? You're not just volunteering. I don't wanna embarrass you, but I know last week there was some logistical challenge of getting people to the right place. You just dropped everything and went and picked people up and dropped them off somewhere else. But you are so involved with this day-to-day and have put so much into it financially, time-wise, energy, emotion.
36:23 What's your fire?
I think, for me, I think it's the same as you. It's a challenge. People that come to us are saying something may not be possible or something could not happen, and our number one thing everybody's taught in this organization is we don't use no.
37:07 We use, when, or we use, we need to plan, we need to research. If you would've told people 200 years ago that you're never gonna reach the moon or go around the moon, why would you said no? 'Cause you have no idea what resources are gonna come together to make something happen.
37:32 And it's all about taking a thought and realizing it's a possibility, and then breaking it down into pieces. And as long as you do that, it's possible. And I think looking at every time you do it, the reaction on somebody's face, the emotion that comes over them and the volunteers, and watching a bunch of people come together, you can just stand back and be like, "This is so cool." Whether you're, you're part of it or watching it's, it is, it's an adrenaline.
38:17 It's an adrenaline. It's just like, that is so freaking cool. And nobody else thought that was possible, and all they needed is someone to say, "We're gonna do it. W-we just gotta figure it out." "I don't know how yet, but we will."
Yeah. And that's the amazingly rewarding thing. I remember in my guiding career, the nice views, and it's a nice place to operate, but I don't really remember many views. But I do remember when people burst into tears and said, "I worked 30 years. I retired this year. I always wanted to come to the Himalayas, and now we're watching the sunrise over Everest." And they burst
38:54 Tears. And that is I don't I remember that more than the sunrise.
100%. Agreed, yeah.
And also when you climb a mountain, you look at these others and you think, "Wow, God, if I did this one, I reckon I could do that one next." And the possibility keeps opening. Yeah, there's something in that for sure.
39:15 But you've just kept that drive going, which is... But now I understand why. For example, you said to me, when we were chatting, you said, "Well, I'd like to do the Wapta Traverse on skis with a client." And initially, so for people that aren't aware, Wapta Traverse is what? Five-ish, five, six days, hut to
39:36 Glaciated.
Five days.
Ice field crossing on skis, ski touring trip. Relatively non-technical, but long distances, high altitude, weather. Not a beginner trip
No
The relatively, mellow terrain. And initially I just thought, I guess like a lot of people, you just think, "Come on." But then actually I started thinking, "Well, you skin into Bow Hut, and then from Bow you get up early and you gotta cross that pass and actually you start solving it."
40:07 And there's something so satisfying about that. I watched an amazing documentary years ago about a guy, and he decided he wanted to sea kayak from Australia to New Zealand, across the Tasman Sea. One of the roughest parts of sea, roughest oceans in the world. And he told his friend about this, and they were both real big sea kayakers. They'd done multi-day open water trips where you have to sleep in the canoe, and they'd done some pretty high-level sea kayaking trips in far outside of land.
40:35 His friend goes, "Now you obviously, that's ridiculous." And he said, "So we're sitting there having a pint," and then one of them goes, "But if you did it, what you'd wanna do?" And they said they started solving it. And he said, "There's something about throwing it out there that just makes it possible." And I thought that was such an interesting thing to say, was he said on the documentary, "I know you can't sea kayak from Australia to New Zealand, but if you say it, in a funny way it becomes real."
Yeah. And you look at that documentary on the lady who decided to swim from Cuba to Florida. Same thing, right? That apparently had never been done. Yep, and then it took her several tries to figure out currents and everything. And no one's saying that it's not gonna be difficult. No one's not saying there's gonna be a ton involved in it or sacrifices or anything like that.
41:33 But to say that it's impossible, you look at everything that society's done in this world over the last 100 years even, you would've told all those stories to people over the last previous 2,000 years, and people would've been like, "Never, never."
It's people will have been born when the Wright brothers first And within the same lifetime people were going to the moon. But even on my personal trips, there's just this remarkable power to starting. You just think, "That trip is too big and hard for me." But if I start training and we get a weather window and we pack three days food and we do it, suddenly what do you know? It's happening.
Well, it's like every year it's like, okay, these are the some of the things we're looking at doing objectives, and I'm just like, "Oh, goodness. Okay." Okay, well, I probably can't run 5K right now, but I gotta figure out how to run 50 in six months. And, oh, now you want me to carry somebody on my back for a couple of those. And oh, you want me to...
42:46 Okay, well, I guess I'm gonna have to figure this out. I have no idea how I'm gonna do this yet,
But I think that's the beauty of having a bit of mileage outside, is you do start to break things down.
You do, and I think the other thing is you have to realize that you're not gonna have all the answers, and you have to be comfortable knowing you're not gonna have the answers, and you have to make sure that the people that are going with you and the client are not looking for an absolute.
43:24 You're looking for an adventure, and that's what we basically advertise and promote These aren't holidays. They're not vacations. They're not a planned trip or anything like that. You're coming out because you wanna have an experience and an adventure just like so many of the rest of us do, and you're gonna be part of the team.
43:48 You're not the client, you're part of the team. And the moment you become part of the team, you have to realize you're gonna get cold, you're gonna be hot, you're gonna be hungry, you're gonna suffer just like everybody else, because that is what adventure is, in the outdoors.
44:07 And I always remember this one gentleman, we wanted to do this trip and everything, and he's just like "I'm so excited and everything." He had cerebral palsy. And all of a sudden I was looking at the weather forecast, and I'm like, "Oh, this is not looking good at all." And we only had about a three-hour paddle, but it was already like 4:00 or 5:00 at night.
44:31 And sure enough, the meteorologists were correct, and all of a sudden the storm came over the Rockies, and it just started sheet lightning everywhere for hours. And I'm like, "Okay, well, we can't go." And he was devastated. So devastated that he was getting very verbally aggressive with me, right?
44:57 And I finally said to him, I said, "You wanted to be in the outdoors and be treated like a mountain man." And I said, I don't understand why you're upset." He goes, "Well, 'cause we're not going." And I'm like, "Because Mother Nature determines what mountain men get to do."
45:19 "Not you." And I said, "You are part of the team, and Mother Nature is talking to you and us all." And after that, he kept saying, "I'm a mountain man now."
Yeah, he is.
And I'm like, "Yeah," because we are at the mercy of Mother Nature.
And the mountain men who stick around for a while are the people that bail a lot. As soon as someone says, "Oh, I got a 90% success rate in the mountains," it makes me a little nervous. 'Cause it's like I got a 50% success rate. And I don't care if it gets worse.
Exactly.
But that's the definition of adventure. It's the outcome's unknown. I've, I often, encountered that a little bit with guiding. And it's why things like Everest don't appeal. I guess the outcome is, to some extent, unknown, but there is literally... And I've been to the bottom of the Khumbu Icefall many times. There is literally a rope.
46:15 You clip into it, and it goes to the summit. The last anchor on the rope is attached to the summit of Mount Everest. You literally pull on this rope, and you go up it. And I'm like, I'm not denigrating anyone's In climbing Everest, but that does not fulfill my criteria of an adventure. You gotta go thinking, "We might get spanked by this."
Yeah.
You've done multi-day ski traverses, and you start thinking, "We could have a 40K bushwhack. We could have a week-long-"
No
"bushwhack carrying skis." To be honest, I would probably leave my and just write off the cost of them if I was gonna carry them for a week. But you
Or your ski becomes a massive snow cone because of the temperature, and it's just clumped together. And you can't even see your ski, and it weighs 18 trying to lift one foot at a time. And you're just like, "Why?"
Oh, and you
But that's why.
Yeah, of course. And if you've ever been in a tent and counted the number of stitches in the tent through That's
36 hours
Yeah, that's adventure
In a tent.
Adventure means outcome unknown. And it's great to hear you talking in those terms, 'cause again, I think we as a society would probably impose our own mental limitations on the people you take on these trips. And just say, "Well, God, don't do that. What if a storm hits and you've suddenly got someone who can't walk?" Well, then we'll deal with it.
You brought up a really good point. Yes, I remember years ago I was on this trip, and my wife was actually with a different group. And they were trying to summit, I can't really remember where It was in the Canadian Rockies somewhere. They were trying to summit this one route. And the guide, they got up to probably, I think she said probably about 600 meters, horizontally of the actual summit. So they were probably, I think, she said it was still a fairly gradual, so it was probably, maybe 100 or 200 meters of vertical left.
48:11 And he's like, "Nope, I don't got a good feeling about this. We're gonna turn around." And she's like, "Well, okay, we're turning around." And a couple of the other people in the group were just like, "No. No, we're not turning around. The summit's right there. We're going." And he's like, "No, we're not." They were doing everything to convince him to go, even though he was the trained
48:39 And had a reasoning what to do, whether it was stability of the snow, the weather coming in, whatever it was gonna be. And in the end, they're: Okay, but we can still count it as a summit though, right? And he's like, "What?" And my wife's like, "What?" And I'm like, "Yeah, all they're concerned about is the check mark."
49:03 The experience to them was being able to tell people that they had these many check Not the actual experience of going to the summit, 'cause they're gonna count it as a summit anyway. And it was like, huh. I'm not gonna say whether that's right or wrong, because that's what was important to her.
49:24 But the good thing is the guide stuck to his guns.
Yeah, well good on the guide. Yeah. No. One of the most hollow mountain experiences I had in my life was Kilimanjaro. And yeah, I met people, on the way down, and they said, "Well, we turn around at..." Is it Gilman's Point, Gilligan's? I don't remember. Below the summit. About an hour below the summit, a few hundred meters below it, there's a kind of point, kind of the first recognized summit of Kilimanjaro, but obviously not the highest point.
49:55 And they're going, "Oh, we turn around at Gilman's or Gilligan's or whatever it's called, so gonna have to come back next year." I was thinking, "Why you gotta come back next year?" You already hiked through all the tropical zones, which is one of the cool things of Kilimanjaro. You already saw the monkeys in the trees, and then the barren tundra, and then the high mountain, then the glacier. You saw the sunrise over Africa.
50:17 You had the trip. You just didn't go to the high... How would you take another week off work to come and try and get to the It just... I, and I get it. We all chase goals. And the things I wanted, there are trips I've done, and I wanted to finish them, and it mattered to me, but I wouldn't have got half a mile from the end and said, "Well, I gotta come back next year."
50:37 I had the experience.
Yeah. I've been there, done that. Okay, you didn't get to the very top. I, you know what?
I'd be sad. I wanted to get to the top of Kilimanjaro. But I'm not going back if I wanted to do the trip again, I'll go back. But I'm not going back to tick it. No way.
Yeah, Mount Kilimanjaro is definitely one of our trips that I've been asked, if we would do, and I'm like, "Absolutely." 100% we would do that one.
Yeah. It's actually pretty well set up for it. I would definitely go back to Kilimanjaro. I loved the trip. I was just staggered at some of the people I was talking to in bars afterwards, in Moshi or whatever the town's called, just people's attitude of, "Oh, so bummed out I didn't get to the top. So bummed." Well, you had a pretty cool week hanging out with all these... Then the local people in Kilimanjaro are so interesting, and such nice people, and the food's interesting, and the scenery's interesting. Wow, I don't even remember... I mean, I got to the top, but I don't care about that.
They can't take
I care about this cool experience
They can't take the reward of the experience. The reward only comes in the check mark at the summit of the meters or feet They could do. And it's like, but you've missed 99% of the Which is everything else that took place on the trip.
Yeah. And everyone likes ticking. There are some trips I'm super proud of having done, and they mean a lot to me. But I definitely have had much bigger experiences on trips I've failed on, or more memorable moments with people who I care about bailing than I have, I think, getting to the top of things. And I think if you're gonna have a long, satisfying career doing outdoor sports, you have to get away from ticking things off a list.
Well, and I think a lot of those people, too, after, probably if you went back and talked to them six months or a year later, they'll probably have forgotten about the
Do you think so?
And probably reflect on the experience. But because they had put everything into their mind about summiting that mountain. At the moment of coming out of it in the first 24 or 48 hours, they didn't achieve their objective. So they weren't processing the experiences that occurred. But then afterwards, when they're self-reflecting on it, Oh, I did that." It's like half the time my wife and I are sitting and talking to somebody about something, and she's talking about a trip, and I don't even remember the trip. And she's talking about all the things we did on it, and then I'm like, "Oh my God, I...
53:17 Whoa. We did that? Oh yeah, we did do that. Oh yeah." "Wow, okay." And it's like, yeah, like her memory of that. She can't find her way in a shopping mall to find directions, she can remember the finer details of everything I did right or wrong on a trip to create an experience that I can't recall anything of.
Yeah. I think probably what you've done with Adaptive Adventures is demonstrate there's a bit more to these sports than, than just ticking things off. You're generating a lot of social good, and a lot of good for yourself. I think it's amazing what you've built. We've ended up not talking about Adaptive Adventures nearly as much as we should have. We're actually gonna do a deep dive on how to plan a trip, so we'll get a bit more granular next time. But how long has it been now, Adaptive Adventures, that you've been giving people these experiences?
25 years.
That is remarkable.
25 years, and we've been doing multi-days for 23 years now.
That is incredible, really. Hats off. There was a mountain guide, Doug Coombs, pioneered a lot of heli-skiing in the Chugach Mountains. And at his funeral someone said, "Doug Coombs probably gave more people the best day of their lives than anyone in history." But you might give him a run for his money.
You know what? As long as people would, again, look at it from the experience and the connection, I think what we all strive for, we may not just realize it. It's those experiences. It doesn't have to be a quantifiable mark of kilometers or meters or number of peaks, but I think genuinely so, people and connections are what it's about.
55:24 And I'll just say, if people that come out with us, the ones that love it are the ones that allow themselves to just experience And not worry about is it a five-star hotel, are they catering to me, 'cause we don't. But you will have a unique experience that will last a lifetime.
Yeah, and if you think there are seven fundamental human needs, they say, of which three are relevance, connection, and uncertainty. You are providing... Not nothing provides all seven. So
That's pretty good, actually. I never heard that.
Yeah. I'm gonna try and remember what the other other the four are. One of them's certainty. But yeah, it'd be you providing relevance, and connection.
I always say, even in the fire service, I tell guys, and I tell this to our staff when we train them and everything to be trip leaders, and I say, "The number one thing you have to learn is how to be comfortable being uncomfortable." Because nothing ever goes as planned, so don't plan 100% of anything 'cause it's not gonna go 100% the way you want it. Plan 50%, have at least five backup ideas, and make sure the door's still open to a whole bunch more, because everybody that comes will hopefully have five each, so maybe you'll have about 25 different on how to make something really happen.
56:53 But just remember, be comfortable with the unexpected and be comfortable being uncomfortable because you don't
Well,
What position you're gonna put in.
That's great training for life, though.
That's true.
I listened to an audiobook recently and the guy said, "Just think in the last 100 years of the things that nobody could have seen coming," and he was talking about the futility of over-planning. So he said, "If you were born 100 years ago, you had two world wars, the Great Depression, the Soviet Union and the Cold 9/11, the financial crash, COVID pandemic, the internet." He's going, it's
57:34 A week before most of those things happened, no one knew they were gonna happen. So don't overthink it. So I love it 'cause I think it's a really good lesson for life. You gotta plan a little bit, but life's an adventure.
Well, some people say I just think that way, so I don't have to plan anything.
Maybe there's an element of that.
Well, There might be.
They might not be wrong.
I can't remember all the plans if they're given to me, so I may as well just go Not having one.
Well, I think with 25 years under your belt, there's probably not many things you can't just roll with.
No, there's,
Well, I don't wanna say that. We've got this adventure race coming up in July.
That's right. I have no idea what they're gonna throw at us yet.
No, I know.
And won't until we're there, so.
But you know what? I'm kicking myself actually, 'cause since we started training for that, we've only done two or three training sessions, but it's made me I've found it so rewarding. The I mean, Clayton is an amazing guy anyway.
He is.
But it doesn't feel like we're giving him an experience. It feels like there's just a team of people. And I've really enjoyed that. Even at this very early stage, I suspect we'll fill our suffering quota in the race, whether we're getting rained on or it's exhaustion or hunger. I think we're gonna pay the piper in the race. But that feeling of being part of a team and achieving something together is already getting me fired up even now. I'm kicking myself in a way that I didn't get involved with this earlier, but it's gonna be around for plenty of years to come.
Exactly. Then the thing I think that people don't realize with this is they think Clayton's sitting in a chair.
No.
And it's like, I would not wanna be in his position at all.
No.
The physical and mental stamina he needs to be in Is like, that's a desire to push himself. And he is training to be resilient in that chair, both mentally and physically. And people think, "Oh, well, it's just him sitting there." And it's like, oh my goodness, you have no idea the amount of core, the amount of, like, bumps and bruises and the looking at it from his perspective and the movement of the chair, the unexpected, getting hit in the face with
1:00:03 And making sure his glasses are on and making sure that he's taking care of himself. He's staying hydr... Like, there's nothing easy about this for
No
Or you or I.
No, no.
Nothing
And it's good from a perspective as well, 'cause I think we were, grunting up a, quite a steep slope the other day and I was thinking, "Wow, we're gonna be doing this for hours here." But then I thought, you know what? I hope he wouldn't mind me saying this. What wouldn't he give to swap?
Exactly.
Yeah. And it just gave me this amazing perspective and I thought, "God, on this race or in future, when I'm absolutely bagged, at least I can do it." How lucky am I? And he would give anything, any level of discomfort to swap places with me for one minute, and I think I've found it amazingly rewarding. We're at the start of the journey and I was about to say I suspect, I kind of know that once this adventure race is out the way, there'll be something else coming down the
1:01:05 Through Adaptive Adventures. But yeah, it's been amazing rewarding, just, I can see the potential for how rewarding it will be and yeah, I just really think hats off to you because it's, you've we're all trying to make the world a better, bit of a better place. Well, some of us are.
1:01:21 But it's opened my eyes to a whole new world and yeah, just hats off 'cause I think you're making a lot of people's lives better and I respect that,
Well, thank you very much
Chapeau.
And I just wanna say that it's one thing to have an idea, it's another to put it into action. But it's another to have people support it. And none of this would have happened if it wasn't for the 25 years of people believing, coming, experiencing, and putting themselves out there both to be volunteers and clients and funders and everything because it's a team effort.
1:02:13 And you're seeing that firsthand, like nobody goes anywhere without a team. And yeah, you can sit there and say, "I started it with my wife and we've done this or that," but at the end of the day, none of this would be where it is or
1:02:32 If it wasn't for those who join us.
Yeah. The value of anything really is the people you share it with. And this is probably the best example I've ever encountered of it. So yeah, we better leave that 'cause I gotta head off. But we
We gotta go train.
Yeah, Of course. I would love to sit on the deck in the sun continuing to riff, but sadly real life is about to interject. But yeah, thanks so much for doing it and we will, I think it'd be really interesting to pick it up and go into the granular detail on the trip. But yeah, in the meantime, thanks a lot.
Thank you.
